After The Massacre

Is this DesiPundit or Shivam Vij times?

Or is Confused and Shivam a same dude?

What is the point in boasting “best of desi blogosphere” when you give link to every post that Shivam Vij dude makes?

May be you should just Shivam’s link in perma link on your home page?

Gaurav Sabnis calls it a gross violation of the right to respect and privacy of the dead.

Have you guys lost all sense of perspective?

And what is DP trying to achieve by linking to the post?
Funnily, Shivam Vij’s post has more people clicking, Gaurav’s.

Shub,

I guess this has been said before-DP links to interesting stuff and blah, blah…

Beyond that, I leave it to individual judgment of the reader to understand the lesson. That is, if they are capable of doing so.

Why is the number of click on’s being more on Shivam’s post so funny?

The point of the post was to point to Shivam Vij’s post or Gaurav’s? [Now I'm the confused one here ]

If it was the latter, then the fact that Shivam Vij’s post got more clicks is surely interesting, and a tad funny, don’t ya think? [Curious, and perverse souls that we are...]

Shub,

Gaurav’s post has no meaning without the context of Shivam’s post. And that is why Shivam’s post has been linked first.

Who gts more hits is not the driving concern of this post.

Confused,

The point that Shub raised was — especially after you mentioned that you agreed with Gaurav, it is untenable for you to maintain ‘I linked to Shivam’s post because the context demanded it’.

If you do agree with that above statement, you cannot agree with Gaurav — exactly because Shivam can use the same argument as well.

First comment,

No, we are not the same. I am sorry, you do not understand the reason for the post. That is indeed sad.

Madhat,

Who has lost all sense of perspective?

Poor Shivam. Can he do anything right?

Gavrau has written to discredit Shivam is obious, Why gavrau has stooped so low should also be obious if any of you watching what Shivam stands for.

So gavrau stop hiding behind respect for dead, privacy blah blah.. you know and every one know its not the issue. You want to spoil shivam reputation for his ideals.

Why are people turning tihs into a “no . of hits” issue or “gaurav versus shivam” issue? So much for insensitivity- these posts seem to have only perpetuated more of it. Do not trivialise the issue here- why does a mutilated and almost naked photo of a rape victim who died have to be displayed? What point is that trying to make? Has the poster given any thought to the dignity of the victim?

TDFI,

Its sad that the issue has turned into no of clicks and him vs rest. Shamefully this is how every time if someone higlight the atrocoties on the oppresed people like Gaurav comeup with some principals … which for them means nothing in the first place. Then it becomes an issue of principal and all talk about this forgetting what has happened to these oppresed. Gaurav and his co has achived their purpose by doing so….. good job gaurav

Zulfiquar,

Leaving Shivam and Gaurav aside, do you agree with Shivam’s post or not? That is the only question.

Confused,

AZgain you are falling into trap of gaurav. Is it is the real question? Shouldn’t we be condemning the grousome crime or to debate who is right.

For me the only question is condemn the oppression being committed and highlight the atrocities on weaker section of socity. Which Shivam is doing pretty well.

Hats off to Shivam for his activism and standing for the ones who have no one to defend in blogsphere.

Zulfiqar,

I think Greatbong already wrote a post about this crime, which I had linked on DP only yesterday. Criticizing it is a no-brainer, however I am all for bringing attention to it.

I am not sure how criticizing a post related to it, draws attention away from the crime. Do you see anyone condoning such a crime?

Thats exactly my point, they don’t condone but condemn the ones who highlight, with whatever pretence they can get hold of. The real tragedy is lost somewhere in the argument whether photos were necessary or not. The shift of focus and malign for the one fighting for the cause.

I am amazed by the venom with which attack on shivam is launced. I suspect the photo was just a pretex.

Why Gaurav and yourself didn’t write about the incident before shivam? or you thought these things happen to dalits all the time and no novelty or glamour value!

I would resond to “Zulfiquar”’s questions, but as a rule i don’t debate with sock-puppets.

I have a post on my blog about photographs that shook the world. It was featured on desipundit as well. somehow the question of victims’ rights did not come up then. Yes, in some cases the victims have agreed on using the photographs for anti-war promotions, but there are couple of disturbing photographs of the dead. They may not have been victims of rape, but they were victims nevertheless. The photographs were famous, some of them have won Pulitzer prize. Aren’t the rights of victims overlooked here? Why aren’t those derogatory?
I do understand those photographs actually revealed the crimes against humanity which may have gone unnoticed. In other words, they served a purpose. Is this reason sufficient enough to overlook victims’ rights? or what I did (by posting those pics) was also insensitive to victims’ rights? I frankly cant make up my mind on this one.

Also, if photographs go a long way in promoting justice or, at least, informing people, like in case of afghan girl, its great. But in this case, greatbong’s post was good enough. The pics weren’t needed to show about the injustice. When pics don’t add any value, we might as well do away with them and respect the rights of the victims.

Shankar,

When pics don’t add any value, we might as well do away with them and respect the rights of the victims.

And who decides about this value adding business?

Shame on Shivam. His post reminds me of those BBC article where these so called reporters refused to show any footage or photographs of 9/11 victims because they wanted to respect “privacy” of those involved – yet, at the same time BBC went all cylinders showing mutilated bodies, crying families and the likes when the Tsunami in south asia happened where there are less educated and less urbane ppl living.

Same is with Shivam. As long as the victim is uneducated, opressed, illiterate, or from a less-urban place, he can justify his photos any ways he wants to to suit him.

S

Vulturo,

That’s subjective. Perhaps, Shivam thought it was important and posted the pics, but the rest of us did not think so. I’m pretty sure there are those who think the pics were indeed necessary.

One of the pics I posted was under the controversy for the brutality. Check
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/lm02.html
Roosevelt believed those pics were necessary, and they were published in ‘life’ magazine. If Roosevelt had not thought so and a less influential had thought the same, those pics wouldn’t have been published.

It is just that there are more people who think what Shivam did was not right. If Shivam actually believed that the photgraphs added a value, Shivam did what ‘life’ did. From what i understand, If Shivam’s posting pics are derogatory then ‘life’ publishing the pic also should be derogatory.
I want to know, if what I did was insensitive too? If so, why wasn’t my post also come under fire? If not, how is my post (and ‘life’) different.

Shankar,

According to me, what you did was perfectly fine. As long you owned the copyrights to those photographs I don’t see anything wrong with it.

From what you say, your problem seems to be that you didn’t come under fire. Now that is actually a “good thing”. Why are you getting worried about it!

Hey guys, watch out. You criticise Gaurav too much, he’ll quit his job…

Sadly, this Gaurav who made the limelight protesting against freedom of expression is the one who’s disgustingly questioning another’s blogger’s thought process and FOE. And Gaurav calls Shivam an “attention-seeker”? Heehehe…

I still dont understand what this contro is all about. I don’t Shivam from Shinola, but I dont find anything wrong with his post. I’m sure he didn’t photoshop these photos, they are obviously available officially and have been featured in the MSM and a few online news sites. So why all this hue and cry against him? Maybe something as simple as better site hits ? Or did it hurt sentis of folks who are intellectual enough to condemn someone for heading an institution just b’cos he sported a pony tail?

Aw… come on guys, stop trying to change the desi blogsphere into a Forum with like-minded members. Let the Bloggers write what they want- for or against, high or low, intell or crap…

For Blog’s sake, just let them BLOG

Just a Thot Process…

The photo of a naked girl running with the mushroom cloud in the background after US n-bombed Japan…

You guys think we should start a campaign to get it banned cos it could hurt some sentiments ?

Zulfiquar,

What is your point, again? They don’t condone but condemn? Sorry, don’t understand.

I asked you about 12 hours ago, do you think it was appropriate to put up that photograph? You have gone around in circles but still refuse to answer it.

Btw, did you notice I had linked to Arnab’s post? And btw, I didn’t see you writing too, unless of course you blog with a different name.

cheers

Shankar,

Admittedly, photographs are a grey area and as Saket said in his post, they can add value to the point. But my problem(personally) was with one specific photograph which Shivam has taken down. I submit, there is no comparison between that and the landing photograph you linked to.

Vulturo,

I am not upset that i was not under fire I wanna know if I was wrong or how was I correct. I might make a similar post (in my blog or elsewhere) in future, and obviously I want to follow a code of conduct that doesn’t offend many. However that doesn’t mean i write for others. If I can convey the same idea offending fewer people, I would rather choose that. In your blog you say nothing is wrong with posting such a pic. I’m waiting for more opinions.

Confused,

Just read you comment that you object to just one photograph that Shivam had posted. I had missed the “one” part when i read your post (my mistake). As I have not seen the pic, I can’t comment on it.

DontheCat,
The girl in the pic you are talking about has agreed to use the pic for anti-war promotions. Not too many issues there.

shivam vij has taken down the photo. i assume he has done this so that the real topic in question gets its due attention.

@donthecat: I think you are referring to the picture of the naked girl soaked in napalm taken in Vietnam.
One of the most powerful photos of all times. One that shook the conscience of a nation…

Madhat,

Yes. Please also refer to Shankar’s last comment.

@confused:
Firstly, my comment was aimed at correcting a factual error.

Secondly,
I imagine a conversation between the girl and the photographer

girl: help me!
photographer: do you give me permission to send your picture to the media of the world? It will be used for anti-war demonstrations!
girl: yes, I do.

IF you do have _any_ sense left, you will realise that any such permission was sought and given much later.

Mad>I stand corrected. Actually, the location or the ethnicity really doesn’t matter. We weren’t invading her privacy, we were looking at the fear in the girl’s eyes/posture and were horrified at a dastardly act against fellow humans. No write-ups, no anti-war rallies, no speeches could have ’shaken the conscience of a nation’ like that photograph.

Shankar>The girl agreed (for the picture to be used) much later after it was published… published publicily several times w/out permission. It was used for anti-war propoganda widely before the girl was traced several years later. The permission then became a formality and a value-added tool in the propoganda. Again, it was still the picture, more than the recounting of the actual incident by that girl, which made more impact.

Sometime, mere words cannot convey the extent of a barbaric nature of a crime. It requires gruesome horrific pictures to portray . For exmaple…the pictures of Nazi C camps…Sometimes it requires to hurt the sentiments of a few intellectual individuals to get the real picture across to the normal millions…

Exactly why I say that Shivam has not done anything wrong by posting those pics.

What really Confuses me is the link to Gaurav’s post, which has nothing to do with the crime, but is a personal attack on the style and content of another blogger. His words “Shivam Vij, who could not have fallen from my estimation further than he actually has” indicates a pre-determined prejudice rather than a level-headed analysis of Shivam’s content. His choice of words about a fellow blogger defenitely IS NOT among “the best that Indian blogosphere has to offer”.

Confused>I think an appreciation of Shivam removing the pic (which I’ve seen and therefore comment upon) is in bad taste. Gives one a small suspicion that DP is trying to influence bloggers on their choice of content. Sounded like “hey, we thank you for your gesture in allowing us to censor your blog”

My two cents. Period.

Madhat,

Thank you for drilling sense in my head.

Imagine this-

Girl- I need help!

Photographer- No, I gotta take pictures. I need to shock the world. Can you give me a better close up while you die?

I hope, with all your senses intact, you would be able to understand.

Donthecat,

Its actually quite funny what you said. You took offense to me trying to influence Shivam? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Did I force Shivam’s hand? Or threaten to break his neck?

Yes, that is Shivam’s blog, and he is free to write whatever he wants to. And I just linked to his post, I reserve the right to disagree. Is that not my right? How does that take away Shivam’s right to free speech? Kindly explain…

By and by, we all write to influence, otherwise we will write diaries.

Don,

One thing I forgot to add. I do not represent DP, whatever I write are my individual views. I am quite surprised that according to you, criticizm is the same as censorship!

Nilu,

As a general rule, when DP contributors link to something, they can add a line or two detailing their pov. Thats all I did, when I said that I agree with Gaurav. It is up to reader’s individual judgment to decide whom they want to agree with.

I have linked to Vulturo’s post too, even though I don’t agree with it.

Definition of Blog from Wikipedia. Emphasis is my formatting.

- “Blogs often provide commentary or news on a particular subject… …some function as more personal online diaries“…”The modern blog evolved from the online diary where people would keep a running account of their personal lives.”

Exactly my contention…Blogs are diaries and not Forums with like-minded members. If Shivam felt that the pic would make a difference to his content, that his right to expression.

I agree with Confused that he has as much right to disagree…maybe as a separate post in his blog as done by Vulturo. When he did it on DP (though contributors can add a detail or two, have a mind of their own, etc etc) especially with just a statement that he agrees with Gaurav, I felt something weird…cos, lemme repeat, Gaurav’s post is a personal attack on SV more than anything else. So does Confused share the same personal views on SV as GS? and again I insist G’s choice of words about a fellow blogger defenitely IS NOT among the best that Indian blogosphere has to offer. and GS in his update clearly states about his history of resentment again SV. not very Bloggish, in my humble opinion. And I feel, strongly, that GS in his post is questioning someone’s Fredom of Expression.

Confused>You sound so patronizing when you say “Good Gesture”. Maybe I’m not one of those intellectual bloggers and may have got it wrong. You, (by agreeing to GS) made it look like SV has committed a major crime by offending the sentiments of HIS readers. And when he removed the pic from his blog, you appreciate him..sorta “good Boy..dont eat more than 2 chocolates” or more like “Hey Good Boy, you changed your blog from X to U, thanks for doing what we liked”. I find that distasteful and worse than arm-twisting someone.

Now, now, I wonder what some of you would say if some Video or Photo blog decides to post a note about The Massacre.

@DONTHECAT,

Surely, you are upholding all the ethical and moral values of this world!

Thanks!

Cheers,
HP

It is just that there are more people who think what Shivam did was not right.

Shankar, how did you come to that conclusion? Or is that the result of an SMS poll on Aaj Tak conducted by a certain blogger who presumes he’s on a vantage point about everything?

Shivam,

I came to the conclusion based on Confused’s and Gaurav’s post. It was only later that the i saw comment all over the place (in your’s vulturo’s, confused’s and gaurav’s post) that i saw there were enough people on both sides.

I also said, “I’m pretty sure there are those who think the pics were indeed necessary.” Now I do know that there are many who think what you did was right. Thats exactly what I meant.

I admit I made a mistake in estimating the number of people on both sides and coming to a conclusion. That was before I read Vulturo’s post. That was before enough reactions came in.

And I am not taking any sides. I am still divided over victims’ rights vs right to expression issue here. I respect your opinion as well as others equally.

“Or is that the result of an SMS poll on Aaj Tak conducted by a certain blogger who presumes he’s on a vantage point about everything?” This was not called for.

Shankar, I was just being sarcastic

Shivam,
I know, that what exactly what was not called for. Had I made any negative comments on you, the sarcastic comment would have made sense. I was neutral to the whole thing. For the record, i live in a hostel and don’t watch tv. I have no idea about that aajtak thing.

Shivam,

You have clearly explained how sarcastic you are. Therefore, you are very sarcastic.

Too much shit happening here. I trust the issue is satisfactorily resolved. Comments are therefore being closed by administrative decree.